Are You Leading, or Just Managing? The Crucial Difference

Conrad, Natasha, and Zach pause their usual procurement discussions to dive deep into the philosophy of leadership, the true meaning of work, and finding purpose in an ever-changing corporate landscape.  

If you have ever wondered what separates a true leader from a standard manager, or why landing that massive promotion didn't make you as happy as you expected, this episode is packed with profound insights. Here is a breakdown of the core themes discussed in this transformative episode.

Stepping Into the Dark: What is Leadership?

The crew kicks off by defining what leadership actually means to them:

• Zach describes leadership as "stepping into the dark" and walking into the unknown. By taking that first step and showing what is possible, a true leader enlightens the path for everyone else, proving that new benchmarks can be reached.  
• Natasha views leadership as a privilege to help elevate others. Drawing on her experiences at 4:00 AM meditation retreats, she highlights that everyone is struggling to overcome their own natural tendencies—and leadership is about helping people on that difficult journey.  
• Conrad splits leadership into two dimensions: value-driven humanity and results-based vision. A true "Level 5" leader, he explains, builds a machine and a culture that continues to thrive long after they leave the organization.

Management Runs the Machine, Leadership Builds It

Is there a difference between a leader and a manager? According to the hosts, absolutely—but you need both to be successful.

Conrad explains that a manager is someone who runs the machine efficiently, whereas a leader is someone who transforms and builds the machine. Natasha adds a critical nuance: if you only cast a vision and inspire people but never follow up on metrics or have tough conversations, you aren't a leader—you are just a cheerleader. Management is a necessary, operational component of effective leadership.

The "Bus Driver" Test & The Stakes of Leadership

Can anyone be a leader? The group debates whether a bus driver who greets every passenger and sets a new standard of kindness is a leader. Natasha quotes Simon Sinek to settle the debate: "You are not in charge, you are responsible for people in your charge".  

Leadership is a sacred responsibility. Poor leadership doesn't just stall careers; it creates immense stress that can jeopardize employees' health, cause sleep loss, and ruin their family lives at home. On the flip side, great leaders create safe environments that foster deep camaraderie, acting much like legendary basketball coach Phil Jackson, who didn't just teach his stars to play basketball, but taught them to play together.

The "7th Bite of Steak" & Finding Fulfillment

Conrad poses a massive philosophical question: If AI eventually removes the human need to work for survival, what will our purpose be?  

Natasha answers this by exploring the concept of fulfillment using a metaphor from Kabbalah. When you are starving, the first bite of a steak is heaven. The second and third are great. But by the seventh bite, you can't even look at the steak anymore—until a few hours later when you are hungry again.  

Material things, money, and lofty job titles act just like that steak; you get accustomed to them very quickly, and they do not drive long-lasting fulfillment. True fulfillment comes from finding your gift and giving it away by elevating others.

Monday Morning Leadership Challenge

The episode wraps up with practical, actionable advice that you can apply to your career immediately:

• Zach: Lean into your authentic self. You will find your true capacity to lead when you follow your own compass and remain genuine.  
• Natasha: Become a "feedback junkie." Build a method for gathering periodic feedback on how people experience you, process the information without getting defensive, and use it to overcome your blind spots.  
• Conrad: Wherever you stand, lead. Find the desire inside yourself to make things better—whether it's your team, your community, or just picking up trash on the road. Don't walk past a problem.

Transcript: Proc-N-Roll | Are You Leading, or Just Managing? The Crucial Difference

Conrad: Hello everybody, and welcome back to Proc and Roll. You're joining us today midway through a deep conversation about leadership, life, and humanity. This is podcast number one of what we've decided is going to be a leadership series. We are going to talk about leadership generally because I personally believe this is the cornerstone of why things matter and being successful at work and at home. To kick this off in this leadership series, how would you describe leadership and why it matters?  

Natasha: I was once asked when and how I learned the most about leadership, and the answer came to me instantly: I learned the most about leadership on meditation retreats. We do four-hour meditations starting at 4:00 in the morning, which gives you a chance to connect with yourself. At the end of the retreat, I understood that if it's so difficult for me to be me, then it's equally difficult for everyone around me to be them. Regardless of title or the amount of money we generate, at the end of the day, we are all struggling with ourselves. You start treating leadership as a privilege to elevate someone and help them overcome their natural tendencies that hold them back, rather than taking a superior position.  

Zach: For me, leadership is stepping into the dark and into the unknown. The person who takes that first step into somewhere no one has gone before enlightens everyone else and shows what is possible. It’s like when one world record gets broken, almost immediately multiple people start hitting the same benchmark because a leader showed it was possible. If you do it right, empathetic leadership means you are responsible for helping those people reach those same goals, and maybe even go further than you one day.  

Natasha: Do you remember what Lucien Oseary said? His moment of pride and fulfillment came from the fact that he coached, mentored, and raised 25 CPOs in his career. That exactly represents leadership.  

Conrad: I see leadership in two dimensions: the value-driven, human dimension, and the results-based dimension. If all you are is a good human, that's great, but a leader needs to have a transformational vision and a practical way to move forward to actually bring about change. You need to see beyond the horizon that most people are seeing. I also think about Level 5 leadership—when you leave the organization, the machine and culture you've built doesn't just end, but continues forward successfully because you built other leaders. But let me ask another question: how is leadership different than management?  

Zach: To be a good manager, you have to have a little bit of leadership, because you are trusted to make decisions that are right for your team and company. But management is a skill, like a runtime. Leadership is moving the needle. If you're not moving something forward, then you're just managing.  

Natasha: Management is a very necessary operational, tactical component of leadership. If you are a leader who just sets the vision and inspires people but isn't following up, checking the metrics, following progress, or having tough conversations, then you're just a cheerleader. You are a stronger leader if you are also a strong manager. Business is tough, and leaders earn respect when people see that they do not shy away from tough decisions or unpleasant conversations.  

Conrad: I agree. Managing is sort of running the machine. If you are driving a bus around London, you are managing a situation and following defined policies. But to be a leader, you are transforming and building the machine. In my current role as a CEO compared to being in the enterprise, the required transformation is massively more, and I am drinking from a fire hose every day. But going back to the bus driver—can a bus driver be a leader, or do you have to have an elevated title?  

Zach: If a bus driver greets everyone who jumps on the bus and brightens people's days day after day, they are setting a new standard. For you to do that genuinely, you have to overcome all your own internal struggles and stress. Once you become that leader, you've set a new bar that other bus drivers now have to live up to. However, I want to draw a distinction between a leader and authority. Just because you are given authority doesn't mean you are a leader; leadership needs to be conferred to you by others.  

Natasha: I have a not-so-secret crush on Simon Sinek, and his phrase defined my whole leadership philosophy: "You are not in charge, you are responsible for people in your charge." From that perspective, a bus driver is in charge of so many lives during the day that if he stops paying attention, he literally puts lives in jeopardy. In the corporate world, leaders very often put not only the careers of their people in jeopardy, but their actual health. People lose sleep and have digestive issues simply because a leader ignores conflicts or sweeps things under the rug. That is irresponsible leadership. I've seen people with inflated titles and massive salaries who I found untrustworthy and uninspiring. Anyone can be a leader.  

Conrad: I agree, anyone can be a leader. Self-leadership isn't a self-focused activity; it's an outwardly focused activity to lift and elevate others. There was a moment in my career where I realized my value-add was no longer the negotiation or the contract; my value-add was the person. It is a sacred responsibility, because as a leader you can say things that cause marital problems at home or destroy someone's self-esteem, or you can do the exact opposite and bring life-changing self-confidence to them. But let me pivot to something broader. If AI eventually removes the human need to work for survival and everything gets built for free, what is the purpose of life? Are we all going to melt down and turn into vegetables if we don't have to push ourselves to survive?  

Zach: Humans always move the goalposts. Even if we live a life of abundance and cure cancer, there will always be somebody who wants to go out and do something that changes the status quo, which creates disruption and forces others to respond. Look at billionaires who have every physical and financial need met—they are still pushing, and sometimes they are depressed, because you have to go out and make your own meaning.  

Natasha: It all goes to fulfillment. I love the saying that the meaning of life is to find your gift, and the purpose of life is to give it away. I studied Kabbalah, and a rabbi gave me a great example of fulfillment. When you are starving, all you can think about is a piece of steak. The first bite is heaven. The second and third bites are perfect. But by the seventh bite, you can't even look at the steak anymore—until three hours later when you are hungry again. You can't get fulfilled with money or titles. When I became a CPO, the excitement lived for like two weeks, and then I realized I had to prove my right to exist all over again. Material things do not drive long-lasting fulfillment. Bettering ourselves and constantly overcoming our natural reactions is what we do our entire life.  

Conrad: We probably should wrap up. Let's finish with a practical insight for leaders at different levels of procurement organizations to help them get to the next level.  

Zach: If you want to be a leader, lean into your authentic self. If you follow your own passion and your own compass, that is ultimately where you will find your capacity to become a leader.  

Natasha: Become a feedback junkie. Leaders are constantly in the spotlight, and you have to build an environment where people are comfortable coming to you and telling you when you did something wrong. Have a method for periodic feedback to find out how people experience you as a communicator and a driver. Take any information you receive—whether you agree, disagree, or feel neutral—process it, take what helps you get better, and dismiss the rest. But never get defensive, because they don't care about your excuses; you should only care about how they perceive you.  

Conrad: That requires a lot of humility to be teachable. My practical advice is: whoever you are, wherever you stand, lead. Find the desire inside yourself to make things better, whether it's your home, your family, your community, or the machine you are managing. Look for issues and problems around you and don't just walk past them; go the extra mile to make it better. Guys, this has been an amazing conversation. I feel like we could talk about this for another six hours easily. Thank you so much for joining us. Please send in your comments, share, and subscribe to wherever you listen to Proc and Roll. Take care of you all.  

This transcript has been edited for clarity while maintaining all substantive content